Summarising,
lots of valid points made about the over broad reach of the bill and its
scope for injustice. But the bullying Maria Eagle just points out the
images could possibly play a part in the process of child abuse
or else lead on to child abuse. And then all reasonable concerns
are overruled.
So we will get a law that will ruin the lives of many innocent people
just in the unlikely case that prosecutors can't find more concrete
evidence against real abusers.
Coroners and Injustice Bill
House of Commons Committee
3rd March 2009
Edward Garnier: ...I want to know
what the use of “disgusting” in the clause adds to the offence.
“Offensive behaviour” is a term that criminal courts, and, I think, most
members of the public who come into contact with pornography or
antisocial sexual behaviour, are aware of, while “disgusting” seems to
be simply an emotive term that does not—unless I can be persuaded
otherwise—help the shape of the clause very much. It is a great word to
spit out and it adds emphasis to one’s sense of abhorrence at the thing
that one is looking at, but I wonder why the Government think that it is
appropriate to use that word in addition to “grossly offensive”. It
leads one to wonder, if the prohibited image is grossly offensive and
disgusting, or otherwise of an obscene character, where that paragraph
leads one to. I think that the Director of Public Prosecutions, Mr.
Starmer, told us in the evidence sessions that “disgusting” was not an
unusual word to be used in criminal statutes, dealing with this
particular area of the criminal law, and while I am happy to be
corrected, I think that it is unnecessary and over-egging the pudding.
That is the half part of my two and a half parts that deal with
prohibited images.
The first main part leads us to a discussion on whether the evil or
wrong that we seek to prohibit is best captured by attacking possession
of prohibited images of children or, as we suggest in our amendment,
their publication. For those purposes, publication means the making
known of an image to a third party. It is not the technical process of
publishing a newspaper or book. Making known to a third party is drawn
from defamation law.
My suggestion—I am entirely open to others—is that we are dealing with
unreal people, not with human beings or children. If we were, the
position would be different, because someone taking an obscene
photograph or creating an obscene drawing of a real child needs to have
the child in front of them doing the obscene act, or depicted doing it.
Here, we are talking about images of children that do not require the
presence of a child to create the image. A silly example is a disgusting
old man. A pervert in his office or the back room of his house could be
creating grossly offensive, disgusting or otherwise obscene images.
Having drawn them or created them on his computer, however people do
such things, he would be in possession of it. One could go through the
whole of this part of the Bill and decide that he fits into this, that
or the other category, but he would not have done anyone else any harm.
He may have drawn the image for his own gratification and may look at
it, but what he does with it in his house will not damage the public or
the wider world.
Maria Eagle: Would the hon. and
learned Gentleman be making a similar distinction if the images were
used to groom real children for abuse?
Edward Garnier: The Minister is
making my point for me. There must be third party interaction to groom.
The child must look at the image, and as soon as the dirty old man shows
it to the child for the purposes of grooming, there is publication under
my definition, because he will have made the image known to a third
party. That is why we must work out whether we are trying to stop
publication in various forms—by internet, e-mail or physically showing
someone a hard copy document—for all the sensible, catch-all provisions
in clause 49, or whether mere possession is sufficient to create a
criminal offence.
Maria Eagle: I accept the hon. and
learned Gentleman’s point, but the image in his example is not illegal.
That is the point.
Edward Garnier: I am not seeking to
blow the whole clause out of the water. I want to amend it in a way that
deals with the public policy point that we should concentrate on. We
want to protect people from being affected by other people’s revolting
behaviour. The dirty old man, to whom my hon. Friend the Member for
North-West Norfolk referred, may create an image for his own
gratification, but as long as he does not show it to anyone else there
is no public harm, which the criminal law needs to think about.
...
Edward Garnier: Let me make it
clear that I do not approve of things such as the prohibited images. I
think they are revolting. But should the criminal law make it an offence
for an individual to make for his own gratification drawings or
pseudo-images, which are not real children?
George Howarth: ...The fact that it
is not a real child in the image—that it could have been conjured from
the person’s imagination—does not make it any less a paedophile
activity. How can the hon. and learned Gentleman say, for example, that
what the elderly gentleman who seems to have been evoked may do with an
image that he has conjured up from his imagination in the privacy of his
own home as part of a paedophile activity, will not lead to other
things? It seems self-evident that if somebody can get gratification
from that sort of activity, it may be but a short step towards involving
real images of children and real activities. I honestly think that the
hon. and learned Gentleman has got it wrong in principle as well as in
terms of interpreting the Bill.
Edward Garnier: If things lead on to
other things, that will create other offences and lead that person to be
guilty of them. To take a ludicrous example, the right hon. Gentleman
and I may be doodling in this Committee room while other people are
speaking; of course, we would not do so, but let us assume that for the
purpose of this argument he and I were separately doodling the sorts of
images described in the measure and that once we finished we tore them
up, threw them away, and showed them to nobody. Would he expect that
that doodling should lead us to be prosecuted under the clause? That is
the sharp point that I am making.
I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman may disagree with me; he may
think that the act of making a private drawing should be a criminal
offence, but is that what we are after?
George Howarth: As the hon. and
learned Gentleman said, it is a ludicrous example, but I accept that he
was trying to find a way of illustrating the argument. I will answer him
very directly. If he doodles on the back of a piece of paper during the
course of the Committee, screws it up and throws it away, but somebody
retrieves it, and then it is discovered that it is grossly offensive,
disgusting or of an otherwise obscene character—an image that could be
of such a nature that it would be solely or principally used for the
purpose of sexual arousal—what he had engaged in would be improper and
should not be approved of or sanctioned by the law.
I would like to make a broader point. The hon. and learned Gentleman
said in an earlier intervention—I did not get around to responding to it
before he intervened on me again—that if the drawings led to something
else, those offences would be subject to prosecution. What I am saying
is that we want those offences prevented. If somebody is in the process
of arousing themselves sexually by that process, it must be part of
something. In a lot of cases, it will be part of something that will
lead on to something else.
Jenny Willott: Having photographs is
a completely different matter because there clearly is a victim. It
should therefore be illegal. If there is no evidence that
non-photographic images lead to further harm, why should we make them
illegal? The question is whether harm is caused as a result of owning
such images; if they have an effect on people’s behaviour, we should
make it illegal. However, the evidence is not strong enough to justify
that. I should be grateful if the Minister were to clarify the matter.
I am a little concerned that we are legislating without any evidence,
because the risk to children could increase. If the evidence showed that
having images that were not photographic acted as a release, and
therefore reduced the risk of harm to children, legislating could
increase the risk of harm. That is why I am concerned that we are
legislating without sufficient evidence.
George Howarth: If the image in
question is grossly offensive, disgusting or otherwise of an obscene
character but does not have a child as a victim, is it not arguable
that, by extension, all children are victims of that image?
Jenny Willott: That argument stands
up only if one believes that all pornography should be illegal because
it is degrading to women. I do not believe that all pornography should
be illegal. The fact is that I do not want to see these images—they
probably are truly disgusting and repugnant. However, the question is
whether they do harm. The fact that the image is something that I do not
want to see does not mean that I believe it should be made illegal. For
me, that is where the balance lies.
...
Madeleine Moon: Having spent a
considerable amount of my professional life working with abused
children, particularly those that have been sexually abused, common
experience is that sexual abuse does not start with the abuse itself.
Gratification starts at a low level and gradually builds. It is rare
that the first action of a perpetrator of sexual abuse is to assault a
child. It is because they no longer get gratification at lower levels of
intensity that the need escalates. For me, this legislation is saying
that we are placing the barrier of what is permissive and what society
views as acceptable at the lowest possible level, so that an individual
is aware right from the start that their actions are unacceptable in
society and in law. In that way, we are also seeking to protect
children.
Jenny Willott: I am prepared to
accept the point that the hon. Lady is making, which is that the matter
does not start with sexual abuse and that it escalates. I absolutely
accept that that is the case. However, that is not the same as saying
that the behaviour of every single person who looks at an offensive and
pornographic image escalates. That goes back to the point that I made a
minute ago, which is whether or not having access to images such as that
acts as a release to people and therefore makes them less of a risk to
children. That issue is at the heart of the decisions that we need to
make on the clause.
I should be grateful if the Minister would clarify a couple of points in
her response. First, the Protection of Children Act 1978 makes it an
offence both to publish and possess indecent images. Will she clarify
why it has been decided in this legislation just to make it an offence
to possess, rather than to publish? Why possess, rather than do both?
Also, there appears to be a lack of clarity—this was raised
earlier—about the issue of looking at images online. That was something
that I mentioned in a couple of the evidence sessions. There are two
different processes. There is the issue of someone downloading images so
that they have them on their computer and the fact that under this
legislation, someone would be in possession of them and therefore it
would be an offence. However, if someone watches a streamed image, it is
held somewhere else so they never download it on to their computer. The
evidence given to us by the DPP was that he thought that probably would
be illegal, but I am unclear about how the legislation as currently
drafted would make it illegal, because someone does not download the
image. They do not possess the image; they watch it somewhere else on a
remote system. I shall be grateful for clarification on that.
Overall, personally and as a party, we have real concerns about the
breadth of the proposals in the Bill.
Maria Eagle: The Government take
very seriously all matters relating to the sexual abuse of children. Any
material that might appear to derive from or encourage such activity is
something that all Members of this House should disapprove. All hon.
Members know that the UK has an absolute prohibition on the production,
distribution and possession of indecent photographs of children. We have
recently extended the law to cover tracings and derivatives of such
photographs. However, the possession of images that have no connection
with photographs is not covered by the current criminal law, which is
the gap that we are seeking to close with this provision.
The police have reported finding increasing numbers of such images
alongside indecent photographs of children. More of those images are
also being found on the internet and are often blatantly advertised as
legal child pornography. I remind hon. Members that child pornography is
illegal in this country and if there are loopholes, we need to close
them. Police and child welfare groups have expressed concerns that such
images could be used for the purposes to which my hon. Friend the Member
for Bridgend referred, and lead to escalation and real harm.
Just because we cannot prove real harm to specific children at this
minute, we should not allow such loopholes—effectively, created by
developments in technology—to continue to make a mockery of the law that
is intended to protect our children. These images are at the highest,
most explicit and disgusting, unpleasant end of any spectrum that might
be considered to be the end result of a doodle. They are highly
detailed, explicit drawings, cartoons and computer-generated images that
look real and depict horrific scenes of child sexual abuse, as my right
hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East made clear
in his remarks. This is not about generally cracking down on artistic
doodles or on art, but about cracking down on a loophole that the police
and others who deal with child protection are increasingly drawing to
the attention of policy makers and Government. We should be taking that
seriously.
I will not rehearse the way in which the offence works, because my right
hon. Friend did that well in his remarks. This is just to say that we
are talking about the highest, most explicit, unpleasant end of things
and about images that are already illegal in respect of publication
under the Obscene Publications Act 1959. That answers the point made
about why this provision only deals with possession: it does so because
publication is already illegal under the 1959 Act. However, possession
of these images at present is not illegal because of the way that they
are created. We need the possession offence because we are talking about
the internet. Specifying publication in the past would have dealt with
this. Possession offences are a way of trying to control these images
when the internet is the main means of distribution; otherwise we shall
not have any control over them.
Let me move on to the amendments, about which I should like to make two
major points. The hon. and learned Member for Harborough wants to turn
the possession offence into a publication offence, for reasons that he
has outlined. He mentioned a narrow range of dirty old men, if I may put
it that way, who would be keeping the image that they create themselves
very much for themselves. It would be hard to catch a person who
produced an image or drawing in that way and for that to come to
anybody’s attention, if that is what they did in their little back room.
It would be difficult to know how that would come to the attention of
the authorities. Certainly, if it did come to the authorities’ attention
I would expect them to be concerned about it, because we are talking
about images that are produced for the purposes of sexual arousal,
primarily in those categories that it is already illegal to publish
under the 1959 Act. But in recognition of the sensitivity of this
matter, we require the consent of the DPP to bring prosecutions. We
tried to construct the offence carefully to ensure that it captures the
material that has raised the most concern.
If we remove “disgusting” from the second element of the offence—I
remind the Committee that the DPP thought that although “disgusting” was
not used often in legislation, he did not find it too great a concern—as
the hon. and learned Gentleman suggests we do, that would reduce the
clarity of the offence and detract from the formula accepted by
Parliament last year for the offence of possession of extreme
pornography, which has similarities to the offence we are talking about.
I think that I have dealt with the point about turning the possession
offence into a publication offence.
Turning to the new clause, we see no need for an additional defence. As
the hon. and learned Gentleman said, that element is imported from the
Defamation Act 1996 and has no precedent within the criminal law. It is
a civil provision. Amending our new possession offence to a publication
offence would not achieve anything. Altering the burden of proof in
respect of the defences to our offence, which mirror well understood and
long-established defences, is unnecessary and will place additional
difficult burdens on those prosecuting the possession of these horrific
images.
We ought to remind ourselves that these are the worst kind of images at
the top end of unacceptability in our society and at the most dangerous
end of potential to harm our children. We are determined to ensure that
we protect our children and not to allow loopholes like this to make a
mockery of the law. On that basis, I hope that the hon. and learned
Gentleman will ask leave to withdraw his amendment.
Edward Garnier: I will do so and I
will not move my new clause formally. But we need to be careful. The
context within which are debating this matter is the context of some
disgusting images. It becomes difficult in the court of public
opinion—to use a phrase which the Government now seem so fond of—to
discuss this rationally. No reasonable person doubts that the sorts of
things set out in clause 49 are revolting. They arouse our
understandable and natural personal distaste and revulsion. I just think
we need to be very careful about what we mean by “possession” Having
listened to the Minister say what she meant by possession, I think she
actually meant “publication.”
I suspect that beyond the practical difficulty of policing the dirty old
man who creates drawings for himself and leaves them in his drawer and
shows them to nobody, the sorts of things the Minister was talking
about—forget the abhorrent nature of the images—are things that appear
to her, if I understand her correctly, to have been uploaded on to the
computer system, on to the web. To that extent, they have been
published, so there is no difference between us. She seems to call that
possession; I call it publication.
So I think what we need to do between now and Royal Assent is to
understand what people mean by possession.
Maria Eagle: Downloading.
Edward Garnier: I hear the Minister
say “downloading” from a sedentary position. There again, in order for
it to be downloaded, it must have been placed on the web by somebody, so
there is a publication on to the web address, presumably suspects.
Between now and Royal Assent we have to be careful to make sure what we
mean by “possession.” As I understand from what the Minister said a
moment ago, she is talking about publication. It is the transfer of an
image from its creator on to the web and from the web to somebody else’s
screen. That is publication. It may also happen to be possession, but
publication is what we are talking about. If she leaves it as simply
possession, as it is currently in the Bill, we shall be in the ludicrous
position where the thought police will go around looking into people’s
top right-hand drawers.
I can see what will happen. Somebody will be raided for some other
suspected offence—handling stolen goods or possession of drugs—and the
police will search the premises and find in this imbecile’s top
right-hand drawer an image that falls within clause 49(2). He will then
fall foul of being charged with that offence, albeit that that
disgusting image has never been seen by anybody else apart from the
person who has been raided for drugs or possessing stolen goods.
I will leave it there, but I think we need to be careful about this. I
refuse to be put off the case I am making simply because the subject we
are talking about is one that arouses entirely proper revulsion. But,
Mr. Gale, I ask you to ask the Committee if I can shut up and sit down.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
...
Jenny Willott: Clearly, when we have
a photograph of an actual person it is much easier to determine
someone’s age. We can work out how old they were when the photograph was
taken. When it is an imaginary figure that is drawn, a number of
concerns have been raised— including in some of the responses to the
consultation—that Japanese art forms in particular are often ambiguous,
so it is difficult to decide how old the figure is. My amendment
proposes to delete the entire subsection. I know the thinking behind it
is obvious, but I am not sure how it can be properly implemented without
pulling into it all manner of things that probably should not be
illegal. For example, images of an 18-year-old who is dressed as a
child, such as Britney Spears in a pop video, clearly is not illegal. If
it was a drawing, however, it could be illegal because it would be very
difficult to work out whether the person in the picture was supposed to
be over 18 or under 18 and dressed up as a school girl.
Maria Eagle: Has the hon. Lady
looked at the images listed in the clause?
Jenny Willott: No, I have not, but I
know what the Government intend and they have made it very clear.
However, the definitions in the Bill are much broader, so it could
include all manner of things that the Government do not intend to make
illegal. The Minister is shaking her head and clearly disagrees, but a
number of people have contacted members of this Committee to raise their
concerns about how broad the measure is. I have no doubt that the
Minister’s intention is to cover the most horrific group of images. My
concern is that the definitions in the Bill are vague and subjective and
do not focus down to that very small group. I should be grateful if the
Minister could comment on that. As these are probing amendments, I do
not intend to push any of them to a vote.
Maria Eagle: I will deal with the
amendments, but let me just say something about the definitions. The
hon. Lady said that she has not seen any of the images and does not want
to look at them. I do not blame her, but let me explain the definitions,
which she has suggested are far too wide, of the mischief that we are
trying to deal with.
An image can be a moving or a still image. It would also include data
stored by any means, for example electronic files, which is capable of
being converted into an image. This means that the term image will cover
material available on computers, mobile phones or other electronic
devices. The law on photographic images will remain unchanged.
Therefore, for the purposes of this offence, the definition of an image
excludes an indecent photograph, or indecent pseudo-photograph, as
defined in the Protection of Children Act 1978 and the equivalent
Northern Ireland legislation.
In respect to the meaning of a child, which she has expressed some
concern about, that means a person under the age of 18 years. The law
covers indecent photographs and pseudo-photographs and, therefore,
includes computer-generated images that appear to be photographs. The
development of this new offence, as I explained before, has been
prompted by the concerns of the police and child protection agencies,
dealing with an emerging, serious gap in the law that they have
perceived, about the rise and discovery of explicit, non-photographic
images depicting the kind of horrific sexual abuse of children that all
of us would want to prevent, including, for example, computer-generated
images that would not meet the definition of pseudo-photographs, and
explicit cartoon and hand-drawn images.
The images that we are discussing, such as computer-generated images,
would not meet the definition of pseudo-photographs—significantly
explicit cartoon or hand-drawn images. Although the images are likely to
fall foul of our publication and distribution provision, it is currently
lawful to possess them. One of our major concerns is that the images
could be used for grooming a child in preparation for actual abuse, and
in the way that my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend set out in her
contribution to a previous group of amendments.
Amendment 489 would remove images such as cartoons or drawings from the
scope of the offence. We believe that that is an unacceptable
limitation. Children see cartoon images regularly in day-to-day life.
They are a well-accepted form of entertainment for children, and the
characters are often well known. An offender could easily exploit that
familiarity, using explicit images created in such formats, and such
graphic cartoon images could be a powerful grooming tool. Reducing the
scope of the offences described in amendment 489 by the hon. Member for
Cardiff, Central could leave explicit cartoon images in circulation and
open to serious misuse, and without the provision the police would be
unable to remove them from people’s possession. The amendment would
create a loophole in the law and in the new offence, which would be
exploited.
Amendment 491 would remove subsection (6)(b) from the definitions.
Subsection (6) provides that an image of a person should be treated as
an image of a child if
“the predominant impression conveyed is that the person shown is a child
despite the fact that some of the physical characteristics shown are not
those of a child.”
I appreciate that that last point may sound unusual, but it is important
to cover circumstance in which a person may try to avoid prosecution by
amending the image of a child slightly—for example, by adding antennae
or animal ears, and then suggesting that the subsequent image is not a
child. That is a real concern. The people who seek to exploit the
provisions and to continue to create what they call legal child
pornography on the internet will use every loophole to try to escape the
offence. It has been carefully structured and amendment 491 could create
another loophole that would render ineffective the offence that we are
seeking to create. We structured the provision carefully to capture only
the images that cause concern. We believe that it is a robust and
sensible response to the concerns raised with us by the police and
agencies at the forefront of child protection.
Amendments 489 and 491 would only water down the offence, leaving it
incapable of dealing with some of the worst images available, and
providing a pointer to those who wish to exploit the situation about how
to avoid the law. They would leave a gap that could be easily exploited.
Amendment 490 seeks to add a further element to our definitions. It
would add a reasonable person test so that an image would be treated as
one of a child if a reasonable person would consider the impression
conveyed by the image of the person shown to be that of a child. We
believe that that test is unnecessary and unhelpful because the words in
clause 52(6) are deliberately similar to those that are well established
in section 7(8) of the Protection of Children Act 1978, which have
helped to clarify the content of pseudo-photographs. Those definitions
have been in use for some years, the courts are familiar with them, and
the definitions in our new offence have been tailored to ensure
continued clarity and ease of understanding. Amending the definitions in
the way proposed by the hon. Lady in amendment 490 would lose that
continuity of understanding and reduce the clarity of the definition.
For those reasons, I hope that the she will consider withdrawing her
amendment.
Jenny Willott: One of the Minister’s
first comments was that I had raised a concern about the definition of a
child. I want to make it clear that that is not an issue that I raised.
I raised a specific concern about the definition of an image and how we
know the age of a person in the image. The Minister has responded to
both issues, but I want her to clarify again the fundamental point,
because I am not entirely sure that she understood where I am coming
from or my argument.
The argument is not a libertarian one that people should be able to do
what they want as long as they do not cause harm to others. That is not
the argument that I am framing. We know, as the hon. Member for Bridgend
said, that the behaviour of people with paedophile tendencies escalates.
I absolutely accept that. However, the argument that I make is that
there is evidence that access to non-photographic materials acts as a
release for people who would otherwise go on and harm children.
At some point, possibly on Report, we need to return to the issue of
what evidence there is about whether the measures we are debating are
likely to cause more harm to children because there will not be that
access to a release. I am prepared to accept the clause if the
Government are able to show that there is evidence that such materials
cause harm and generate more problems for children. So far, I have not
seen any evidence and the Minister has not referred to any in her
comments about the arguments on both sides of that debate. I am not
arguing for a libertarian approach—this concerns what is best for
children while not criminalising people who are not doing any harm.
That said, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Update:
Criminalising One's Own Imagination
21st March 2009. See
transcript
from
publications.parliament.uk
The dangerous cartons debate continued into parliamentary questions to
the Justice Secretary on 17th March 2009:
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Justice (Bridget Prentice): In 2000, we increased the maximum
sentences available for production and distribution of indecent images
of children from three years to 10 years, and for the simple possession
of indecent images from six months to five years’ imprisonment.
George Howarth (Lab): I thank my
hon. Friend for that answer. Does she agree that not only are images
based on real children unacceptable, but so too are images that people
use for these purposes that they have generated either from their own
imagination or electronically? Will she give the House an assurance that
her Department will not be going down the route of believing that those
sorts of images are a matter for the individual concerned and their own
conscience?
Bridget Prentice: I can absolutely
give my right hon. Friend that assurance. He will have been as surprised
as I was when in the Coroners and Justice Public Bill Committee the
Opposition spokesman, the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr.
Garnier), said that he felt that our clause was, perhaps, over-egging
the pudding. I do not for one minute think that taking action against
these people in this way is over-egging the pudding. We need to protect
our children.