Our new adventure at the Trading standards office in Derby started for me on
the day Mike co owner of DVM Enterprises and owners of the All Amateurs DVD
label and web site phoned me up to say he had received a telephone call and
letter from Trading Standards in Derby saying they had sent a secret shopper
into his shop premises 'Fantasies' in Derby. Fantasies is an adult shop
selling lingerie and toys, but since the local council rejected the
application for a licence to sell R18 DVD's it has remained just lingerie
and toys.
Fortunately since we decided to stick to the letter of the law and not
sell DVD's through the shop we didn't have anything to worry about, that is
until the "self appointed guardians of the morally righteous" Trading
Standards for short picked up a card on the shop counter advertising the web
sites for the shop
www.fantasies-online.co.uk
and our adult site
www.all-amateursdvd.com
Time to introduce myself I'm Ian webmaster and co owner of the above
mentioned web sites. So I get a phone call from Mike. Hi we have just
been contacted by trading standards they say our site doesn't comply on a
number of points they say it's nothing to worry about something to do with
distance selling regulations and our online shop. Now maybe it's just
paranoia on my part but I always have this niggling sneaking suspicion that
The self appointed guardians of the morally righteous hence force
referred to as T.S. might just be harbouring a not as yet mentioned hidden
agenda. My reply to Mike Right OK maybe it would be a good idea if I
attend the meeting with you guys, better to get the info first hand.
Hmmn thinking to myself well if there is no hidden agenda at least I'll get
the required compliance adjustments first hand. But then again if something
awkward does come up at least I've done a lot of research in this area that
might come in handy.
Tuesday 27th September 2005 time 12-45 pm: We are driving to the meeting at
the Trading Standards office in Derby, Mike and Dave who also attended are
fairly relaxed and jovial Don't think there will be a problem it's just
compliance stuff to do with the shop I'm fairly quiet my paranoia is
bugging me. As we walk into our meeting we are greeted cordially by a couple
of friendly faces belonging to an older man and young woman. At this point I
resist the urge to name, names. They both have that wonderful homeliness of
the characters on "Little House on the Prairie", and under any other
circumstances that would be cool, but remember we are evil pornographers, so
I became a little wary, although I hid it well.
The first 30 minutes or so of the meeting went swimmingly, cordial and
friendly discussions about how we could make our site comply with the
distance selling regulations, we made all the right noises about getting the
work done ASAP, even I felt comfortable at this stage silently reprimanding
myself for my unfounded paranoia.
Then I swear to god I'm sure I saw the mask slip on the older gentlemen
for a fraction of a second, as a microsecond look of the self satisfaction
only the morally superior can muster flashed across his face, (or maybe I
imagined it, I don't want to be sued) this immediately is followed by Now
what about the DVD's your selling on your site Ah it's not paranoia I
was justified all along, I'm feeling quite pleased with myself until the oh
bugger factor sets in 2 seconds later. Well in unison we all said We
don't sell the to residents in the UK which is true, then how do you
give refunds to people who purchase them online from the UK , we
don't have to I reply, our shop is set up so that payment is not
taken unless we manually authorise the sale ourselves, we just write back an
apology saying we can't accept orders from UK residents and inform them they
have not been charged on their credit card. They both seemed somewhat
disappointed with this reply, shouldn't they have been pleased?.
Next we are asked about the MEMBERS area on our site that they couldn't
access because it needs a password. It's not a members area I reply
we don't have a members area, It is a password protected area for trade
only , His reply with unnecessary glee Ah so you do sell DVD's from
your site.
Mike regaining some of his colour after the initial shock interjects
Yeah mate but it's business to business sales, and to the trade only with a
shop in there with trade only prices and that ain't illegal Mr TS
Man: Yes but how do we know that if we don't have a password, and how do
you know they are trade customers.
My own façade of cordiality is compromised for a second
Yeh and your
not getting a password, besides didn't you read what it says on our site, we
require proof of business status in the adult industry before we'll issue a
password for our trade area, that includes business documentation, premises
etc. I composed myself but it was too late he'd obviously enjoyed the
reaction on one level but seemed visibly disappointed that yet again we
hadn't broken any laws. Jesus what's wrong with these people don't they want
people to observe the law of the land?.
The real agenda.
After much towing a throwing and gnashing of teeth in which the TS couple
spent a great deal of effort to wind us round in circles (I wonder if they
have special training in this technique), they finally came to their real
agenda. It's not paranoia if their really out to get you, whoo hoo
vindicated. Now about these downloads on your site. He leans over
ever so slightly, body language highly suggested of the I've got you buggers
now mode, and the mask of cordiality barely managing to keep itself in
place.
A slight sideways glance from me confirms Mike and Dave are indeed in
temporary shock, and I'm thinking, thank god I drove the hundred miles to
attend.
Note at this stage that I haven't mentioned much of what the lady TS
officer was saying, I can't remember basically, all my concentration was on
the older more experienced man, he was the real driving force of the 2 of
them, and certainly the only contributor of any real sticky points. After
much time of four people talking over each other and not listening things
calmed down a bit to the point where intelligent discourse was just about
possible, at this time someone said to the TS guys Yes but thats not
illegal.
No mask at all now from the TS guy just the expression of pure righteous
indignation that only the morally superior can attain, he says I think
you will find it is illegal. At this point the TS officers fall back on
their advanced running people round in circles training and I swear the
following is exactly how the discussions went. Mike and Dave have now fully
recovered from the initial shock and carry the air of authority that any
decent law abiding citizen adopts when defending their hard work and
livelihood.
Their input is now highly proactive and focussed, so who said what to
whom does get a little blurred however I portray the proceedings as
accurately as possible. TS man So these downloads of your R18 films on
your site? Being intelligent we figured this was a question not a
statement, what about them we ask , well it's illegal to sell R18
rated films anywhere other than a licensed sex shop.
Now although it's not important at this stage, all will become clear,
with all my research, I didn't know if this was actually true regarding
streaming or downloading of R18 films. Mike comes to the rescue at this
point Actually the films on our site for download are not the R18 version.
This is absolutely true, TS man what do you mean? I chip in Well
actually they are a different version they are longer and uncut, they don't
have any nasty content just more than is on the DVD version.
TS Lady speaks with a good point unfortunately, damn did I underestimate
her, Well on your site the covers on the downloads have the R18 Logo on
them. TS man can't resist Yes and if it isn't the R18 version that's
misleading advertising. Oh Bugger point 1 to TS, I interject knowing
she's got a point that I had already figured out some weeks previously. Actually you will find that not all the covers have the R18 Logo on them,
they are blanked out on many, and the ones that still do are an over sight
on my part. long pregnant pause; then I ask If I remove sight of the
R18 logo on all the covers shown for the download movies will that bring
them into compliance. Yes it will replies the TS man but he has
this unnervingly, I'll call it mischievous glint in his eyes to be kind,
that suggests he knows something I don't .
Mike and Dave breath an audible sigh of relief, I'm still uneasy and Mr
TS Man waits an unreasonable length of time to burst our bubble by gleefully
announcing Well actually you still have to remove the downloads from your
site , What the fu... Hells up now Mike snaps back. TS Man Well they're unclassified you see, Someone on our team
but you just
said ..Cut off mid sentence TS Man ah but that's a whole different
issue.
The conversation ensues to the tune of TS's advanced running people
around in circles training, going back and forth between you can't stream
R18 because it's R18 and if it's not classified you can't have it on your
site because it's unclassified nonsense. Mike well what about the
hundreds and thousands of other sites in the UK, surely if it's illegal
what's that all about? Good point Mike I'm thinking. TS Man What we
are dealing with here Mr Mc. is your site.
Well you've got to admire his focus, you know credit were it's due and
all that. Then totally out of the blue he says It's our job to protect
children from getting access to pornography on the internet. I'm
thinking to myself, I'm sure that's not one of the remits of Trading
Standards, maybe he means it's his own personal crusade. At this point I am
having to resist badly the temptation to say well what about the 250,000,000
million other hardcore porn sites worldwide, what do you expect to achieve
here, and wouldn't the money be better spent on educating parents, that
unfettered and unsupervised access to the internet via computers in their
children's bedrooms is perhaps not the greatest policy, but I kept my mouth
shut, and waited for a calm in the proceeding before imparting my 2 cents
worth.
Finally I see an opportunity to speak and impart the wisdom of my
research, I state simply and deliberately without any emotion. You should
know there are no Laws in the UK governing most types of Internet
pornography, other than mostly those laws that breach international law,
followed by a few examples. TS Man You're wrong, me: Perhaps
you should do some research. I was very polite, It's not wise to
antagonise the morally righteous. I find that can be counter productive. I
gave him one or 2 friendly pointers about where to look, I thought I was
very helpful and friendly about it. Mr TS Man with vigorous indignation, and
deliberate brevity Your wrong! , Video recordings act 1984.
Strongly resisting the urge to give it to him with a sugar coated finger,
instead I meekly and mildly replied Erm I think you'll find that the
video recordings act 1984 doesn't cover downloads over the internet, in fact
it has been determined in court cases that the video recordings act of 1984
only covers the physical mediums available of the day, video tapes and
films.
Mr TS Man: I don't believe you. Politely I reply:
I don't
require you to believe me, all I ask is that you do a little research of
your own to verify that what I have told you is correct. Oh dear that
horribly righteous I've got you know look came back. Ah yes but the the
video recordings act was updated in 1990 whatever so it is illegal.
Oh dear seems I have to carry on My fault for not making it clearer,
I'm aware that the act was amended in the 90's, however it was only updated
to allow addition of DVD's and a few other tangible media that have been
invented since, and I guess by tangible media you can take that to mean
something you can hold in your hand.
TS Man "I don't believe you" Look I know I'm a filthy pornographer but
that doesn't make me a compulsive liar. I didn't say it. Look, I said
still retaining my friendly air I have an interesting phrase for you,
'electronic delivery' it is a term that has been invented to explain non
physical media supply of multimedia content, other than broadcast via the
airwaves, if you do a little research you will find that the video
recordings act of 1884 including the update does not cover electronic
delivery. TS Man Hmmn electronic delivery, he writes it down with
slow deliberate ceremony, I think I caught a begrudging and fleeting look of
respect. Yes I said finally also might be worth looking into a
discussion held in the house of lords within the last couple of months
regarding the possibility of monitoring and controlling content from UK
based internet media suppliers, especially in respect of online pornography.
They came to 3 conclusions. 1) It is unworkable, 2) It would be too
expensive, and 3) there is no will to do it.
The meeting finally came to a close, the pretence of cordiality maintained,
all smiles and handshakes, Mr TS man, announcing that with the meeting being
somewhat deadlocked, he would indeed do a bit of research on the subject. We
drove back to Mikes place for tea and refreshments. The tone of the
conversation later that afternoon was somewhat heated and revolved mostly
around phrases like This is not fucking on, we have worked far too hard
for this crap and do you suppose they really have the power to make
us take the downloads off our site.
I tried to maintain the calm by reassuring all parties that I was pretty
sure I was right about all this and not quite really believing myself at
this point, then the phone rang Dave answered the phone and went grey, he
passed the phone over to mike who promptly went a furious angry red colour,
I'm watching in amazement wondering what's going on after a while I got from
Mike it was Mr TS Man on the phone, and that he was still insisting we take
our downloads of our site. Wild gesturing on my part finally sees the phone
in my hands and I asked calmly that he (Mr TS Man) repeat to me what he'd
said to my venerable colleagues.
I was surprised to find the extent of the research he had undertaken in
the short hour that had passed since our last meeting. Mr TS Man I've
spoken with my boss, he says your wrong and the Video Recordings Act of 1984
does apply so you either take the downloads of the site or we will prosecute
you through the courts. Now I have a short attention span and I was
starting to get a bit bored with this game, and maybe I could have put it
better, my reply was very brief but not with unfriendly tones, Look Mr TS
man this is what we are going to do, we are going to take absolutely no
notice of you, you do not have the authority to do this, and I suggest you
and your boss, do the simple basic research I suggested in the first place
because it may well save you a major embarrassment when you do take us to
court. More pretence at cordiality then silence.
The day after Mike was feeling much better, he'd phoned a contact at the
BBFC about all this and had been reassured that there is no current law or
legislation that allows TS to do this to us, He kindly offered to speak to
Mr TS Man if we wanted to forward his number on. As yet we haven't taken him
up on the offer because all has been eerily quiet.
Our major concerns are now based on a simple premise. Informing the
morally righteous that they don't have the right or power to pursue their
crusade at your expense can potentially mean they spit out their dummies in
righteous indignation, and could potentially use their power to harass and
make life general uncomfortable for a while. We sincerely hope not as we are
honest and trusty worthy evil pornographers trying our best to operate our
evil empire within the laws of the kingdom. We have never kidnapped morally
upstanding citizens and forced them into a sordid life of pornography. We
try to be responsible and we really think that the TS should concentrate on
their remit instead of trying to push their authority where it has no
jurisdiction.
We sincerely hope not too many other site owners have had these kinds of
troubles, and recommend standing your ground. Don't let them get away with
it.
We welcome all comments from other evil pornographers, legal types lawyers
etc with enough money that have an axe to grind and won't ask us for any
more money, and all members of the general public to put in their 2 cents
worth.
Final thought for the day. Shit I hope we don't become a test case. Oh and
yeah I was well happy to be an avid reader of Melon Farmers, a lot of the
info that's sunk in over the years came in handy.
You can mail me with your horror stories at ian@all-amateursdvd.com, but
please no mails from the kinds of people featured on this sites "Nutter
Watch" as a string of expletives often offends.
Update:
Not breaking any laws
11th November 2005
Trading standards finally came back
to us, and after doing some research and have acknowledged that we are not
breaking any laws and are going to leave us alone.
